Water pump problem

Discuss anything here.. except tractors and steam engines..

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Moose » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:01 pm

My tank is about 60 litres.
1950 Tea 2080, 1951 Tea 2085
:bearded:
User avatar
Moose
 
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:23 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Hiawatha » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:40 am

Yes Grunt , certainly leave something out for the Boggles but never , never thank them directly or they'll get the hump and leave .

Hal I believe you have a real case for a warranty claim against the manufacturer , the so called ' inscription ' is actually the rubber compound injection site , each dimple being the sealing point once the process is complete .
As the bladder has failed at one of these port sites it is obvious that there was some deficiency in the thickness of the membrane which has consequently caused the failure . Yes it is a few years old but there is always the implied warranty on a major purchase to consider , something built to pump and control water and costing a substantial amount of money should last more than a cursory few years . Ring and ask what the expected service life of such a pump is , then use the company's own estimate against them if they try to wriggle .
-------- 1952 TED, 1957 FE35 Grey and Gold Deluxe
User avatar
Hiawatha
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:55 am
Location: Victoria Australia

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Hal Mercier » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:20 am

Well guys.....interesting stuff.

Grunt....correct...I discovered the end plate (left in the pic) held on with small bolts and compressing the flange of the bladder does have a central plate with the same imprint....9 holes, same spacing!

This implies that someone may have left it with an excessive air pressure, for some considerable time, and with no water in the bladder to compensate. This part of the bladder must have been rammed into the holes, forming the imprint.

Yesterday, after flushing the pump through, I reassembled it on the cleaned-out pressure vessel.

Did what I thought was the procedure to prime it, but had a problem as the small electric tyre inflator seemed to have a leak (!*ù$) where it attaches to the valve on the right end of the tank....so I couldn't pressurise it to 1.5 bar.

Result....the pump motor turned happily, but I saw no rise in pressure on the gauge.

I poured water in at the top of the system, eventually filling half the bladder, but the top half stayed full of air....so I need to get an air pump which works to remedy thus.

So....preferred treatment for Boggles is

1/ Milk

2/ Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen? Ooops...."...don't thank them directly or they'll leave"
I don't want the Coffee Phantom getting the hump....it's a friendly presence.

Moose....I looked at my neighbour's installation....definitely more professional than mine, his tank is also 60 litres. He's lived there 12 years, had to call someone in on only one occasion.

Charles, My pump is not exactly expensive....I reckon it was the cheapest system they could find at the time, as the Mill was only being used during the summer months by two people.If I have to replace it, I can get one new for 120 euros!

But...I'd prefer to fix this one, and if it packs up again, fit something better.

I repaired the bladder with Vulcanising tractor patches, one inside, another outside....should work fine.

I also changed the air valve, the original looked fine, despite having been soaked for who knows how long!

The air valve I got from a local ancient, ex Citroen dealer, who has a large collection of old tractors, some very rare. He restores them....does a fine job too. Pity I didn't have a camera with me, I'll try and remember next time.

he even had a very early (grey) Ford Ferguson up on a ramp....with early Ford petrol engine! Very familiar looking, apart from the engine, bonnet, grill and also the wheels are quite different.

He'd definitely been on the Pinot, seemed to be under the impression that the 'Standard' engines were 'Standard-Hotchkiss' which is a confusion

He does get a bit muddled after a few drinks....I met him at a village summer fete last year, where he'd definitely had a gargle and proceeded to recount a theory that it was Massey who produced the tractor before Ferguson became involved (the TEA 20!).

Pointless arguing, he's a good old boy. I did point out he was talking bollocks of course. :mrgreen:
User avatar
Hal Mercier
 
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:02 pm
Location: Dept 87, SW France

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Grunt » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:45 am

When I built the pressure up on the water side of the system it was extremely difficult to get any pressure into the air side. We had a footpump with its own gauge, because there was so little room on the air side it took less than half a stroke on the footpump to build the pressure up which was immediately lost when the connector was removed.and the pressure checked with an independent gauge.

I suppose what I’m trying to say in a long winded way is that if the wet side of the system isn’t de pressurised then you don’t stand a chance of pressurising the dry side.

Boggles are helpful and considerate if treated well which is where the cream and sugar come in. They become malevolent and start hiding stuff if you treat em cruel.

I repaired the bladder with Vulcanising tractor patches, one inside, another outside....should work fine.

Not sure what boggles attitude to Minoan vases is. Unusually there’s no mention of them in Yorkshire folk law.
User avatar
Grunt
 
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:34 pm
Location: Yorkshire, where puddings come from.

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Hal Mercier » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:40 pm

Heh-heh! :lol:

I finally allowed pure logic to remedy the confusion.

As the bladder was actually half full yesterday due mostly to my attempts to prime the pump....I'd been pouring what seemed like vast quantities in the top of the system but still seeing no pressure, I reckoned it was due to there being no 'dry end' air pressure, but still 10 litres of air in the top of the bladder. it kept burping up lots of air.

By pressurising the dry end, the airspace in the top half of the bladder is compacted down to zero....or so I reckoned.

And behold, 'twas exactly so!

Now, it works absolutely perfectly.....when I turn a tap on, instead of the pump starting up almost immediately, it doesn't start till the bladder is nearly empty!

I reckon I should save some power too, as it's not forever pumping up, only to somehow lose pressure soon after.

I cleaned out the bakehouse today, which I understand boggles appreciate? Soon, it'll have a new roof!
User avatar
Hal Mercier
 
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:02 pm
Location: Dept 87, SW France

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Grunt » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:32 pm

Soon, it'll have a new roof!


That should keep the lickle buggers dry, they’ll love you.
User avatar
Grunt
 
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:34 pm
Location: Yorkshire, where puddings come from.

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Moose » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:59 pm

"I repaired the bladder with Vulcanising tractor patches, one inside, another outside....should work fine."

I would be a little concerned about the patch tainting the water. :!: Or perhaps something toxic, even if you do not taste it. Just a thought.
1950 Tea 2080, 1951 Tea 2085
:bearded:
User avatar
Moose
 
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:23 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Hiawatha » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:05 am

I'm surprised on a number of fronts , the air pressure must have been enormous for it to cause such an imprint on the bladder , I was so sure that the dimples were injection points .
Also surprised the patches stuck at all , most of these bladders are made of a silicon rubber compound , something a patch wouldn't readily adhere to .
Such an impressive pump system would certainly be a major investment here , but then we are kept in the dark and made to pay through the nose for most things in Australia .
This is fairly typical of the units we use ;

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-BIANCO- ... SwySVZ6gGV

I would dearly like to be able to buy one for under 200 euros :sad:

I also have difficulty understanding the need for a big tank , as you can see the tank on this one linked is only two litres , rather than storage it is used as an activating mechanism to sense drops in water pressure . So do your systems , particularly Moose's at 60 litres , act as partial pressure storage to eliminate the need for the pump to come on each time the tap is used briefly ?
Glad its fixed , another triumph for shed engineers and boggles !
-------- 1952 TED, 1957 FE35 Grey and Gold Deluxe
User avatar
Hiawatha
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:55 am
Location: Victoria Australia

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Hal Mercier » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:29 am

Hiawatha wrote:I'm surprised on a number of fronts , the air pressure must have been enormous for it to cause such an imprint on the bladder , I was so sure that the dimples were injection points .
Also surprised the patches stuck at all , most of these bladders are made of a silicon rubber compound , something a patch wouldn't readily adhere to .
Such an impressive pump system would certainly be a major investment here , but then we are kept in the dark and made to pay through the nose for most things in Australia .
This is fairly typical of the units we use ;

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-BIANCO- ... SwySVZ6gGV

I would dearly like to be able to buy one for under 200 euros :sad:

I also have difficulty understanding the need for a big tank , as you can see the tank on this one linked is only two litres , rather than storage it is used as an activating mechanism to sense drops in water pressure . So do your systems , particularly Moose's at 60 litres , act as partial pressure storage to eliminate the need for the pump to come on each time the tap is used briefly ?
Glad its fixed , another triumph for shed engineers and boggles !


In fact till I noticed the 9 hole pattern in the end plate I assumed the imprint was an injection moulding core too! Imagine my surprise etc..

It's only now that I can experience the pump working as it should that i understand why they have these pressurised tanks. It's two-fold....yest I think it's useful having a known back pressure from the dry end of the tank of 1.5 bar for it to gauge it's optimal water pressure of 2.5 bar. The larger 60 litre systems seem to run higher pressure, up to the mains standard 4 bar found here.

The fact of having the 19 litre reserve in the pressurised bladder does mean the pump isn't having to start up every time a tap is opened...though longterm it's actual work time has to be the same, there will be less short periods of top-up action.

I think the crux of this thing with pressurising the dry end, which is probably explained in the manual I haven't seen, is that the bladder should be half full of water when the air goes in, but I may be wrong.

Grunt's experience is that if it's full of water you have difficulty getting ANY dry air pressure, as you are trying to compress water.

I'm going to try another or the original air valve today after checking residual pressure with a proper vintage sliding column air pressure tester for tyres that I think came from my father's kit.

Here are a couple of links for you poor Ozzies who might want to order one of these units, which you should be able to get easily enough as they are manufactured in the PRC (China). I'm amazed by the price of the one Hiawatha showed.

https://www.ebay.fr/i/260717897573?chn=ps&dispItem=1

https://www.darty.com/nav/achat/mp/jardin/pompe_et_filtre/surpresseur_de_piscine/ribiland_ribiland_pompe_surpresseur_19ll_600w_surjet_61_19_l__MK188820479.html?dartycid=sea_shopping-marketplace-online_MP-PLA-Brico-maison-jardin_adgroup_Jardin&gclid=CjwKCAjwgr3ZBRAAEiwAGVssneoGtpR7Cra0noxBZhTXkKj0CvjYuF6EAAd5-GIHNDjppJUw0VI0ZBoCAA0QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#ectrans=1

Good point by Moose, that reminds me....as you can see these pumps are also used for swimming pool applications BUT you need to specify a drinking water type bladder, they do both types.

Sounds as though someone in Oz could make a few pennies importing these direct! :idea:
User avatar
Hal Mercier
 
Posts: 375
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:02 pm
Location: Dept 87, SW France

Re: Water pump problem

Postby Moose » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:51 pm

There are a lot of criteria used here to size a tank and pump system. If you explore this link, you will get a fair bit of theory. There is a Youtube video that explains how a good tank is made compared to cheap ones. https://www.google.ca/search?q=how+to+s ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhBifh7nCtg

A pump system very much like Hal's is about $200 to $300 here. A new system like mine might be $500 to $1000. Things really change if you go to a submersible system in a deep well (more than 50' deep). The pumps can start at $1000 and up.

Unless your house is huge or more than 2 floors, running your water pressure as high as 4 bar (60 PSI) justs uses more electricity. The pump will sit there trying to achieve the last few PSI before cut off, only to drop back down again after the 1st glass of water. :smile:

For my system, and it took some modifications to get it there, the main thing is to be able to shower while someone flushes the toilet and not a have a significant change in flow. For me that is 30-50 PSI and about 25 litres/minute.

"I also have difficulty understanding the need for a big tank , as you can see the tank on this one linked is only two litres , rather than storage it is used as an activating mechanism to sense drops in water pressure . So do your systems , particularly Moose's at 60 litres , act as partial pressure storage to eliminate the need for the pump to come on each time the tap is used briefly ?"

As for Charles' question above, the short answer is yes. But if you get into pump theory, you have to define your needs. Appreciate that in North America, far too many waste their water. For some families, they might decide that it is normal for 2 teens to have 30 min. showers simultaneously and thus require 50 PSI and 50 litres/ min. flow. That may require a 2 hp pump and a 200 litre tank.

It is considered undesirable here to not have the pump short cycle or come on too frequently so as to minimize the wear on the pump. If the pump comes on at all, it should run for at least one minute. I cannot imagine anyone choosing a system here using a 2 litre tank, unless it was to water the flowers from a rain barrel. I do sympathize with your costs though Charles. That is a ridiculous price. And they all come from China anyway. :P I see a career opportunity in importing for someone in Aus.

On last thought. I have done what you were describing Hal. When having trouble getting the pump to prime, I have left the air chamber empty until the water pressure just begins to build. A rule of thumb here is 2 PSI below the cut in pressure. So, if using the 30 to 50 PSI setup, I would get the gauge to say 2 PSI with pump water only, then fill the bladder with the air pump up to 30 PSI. Then finish by letting the pump cycle up to 50 PSI.
1950 Tea 2080, 1951 Tea 2085
:bearded:
User avatar
Moose
 
Posts: 1207
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:23 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Previous

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests